I would weigh in here, in a very small & simple way... in order to maybe break down the debate & make it easy to enter. This I do for my own sake, as I am a simple-minded girl and all these side arguments & ideas make my simple head hurt.

Baylen says:

"Using the example of the U.S., libertarians here believe our Constitution to be very clear about the rights and responsibilities of the American people and our government. We should be free to do as we please as long as we do not harm the person or property of another. This means that each individual adult should be entirely free to engage in the voluntary purchase, sale and use of drugs, pornography, hamburgers, homes, etc. – free of any government involvement, judgment or penalty. The government’s responsibilities, thus, are limited by the Constitution to ensuring that each person’s property is protected from theft or damage, and that each person is protected from physical violence."

"These two things are not only the essence of what government should do, they are the only things government should do."

The problem to me is that Baylen & other libs fail to address the reality of capitalism which is that it is violent. The premise of capitalism is a natural competition for resources, & the everyday reality of capitalism is a system under which many people live in a state of everyday physical violence. If Baylen really believes the role of govt is to protect individuals from physical violence, then the govt needs to get its shit together & shut down everymutherfucking company Ive ever worked for. I have worked like a dog and spent more time in my life trying to figure out how Im going to pay the bills than I like to think about. My grandfather David Carver died six months after he retired from G.M. At that time, in '85, his factory Inland had started a new safety program... life expectancy according to what was told to my grandpa by the company was eighteen months past retirement for G.M. laborers like machine operators like him. Like I said, he lived six months past the day he retired from that hellhole. He was 53 years old & had a heart attack one evening & died couple of days later.

I wait tables for $2.13/hr plus voluntary tips, the same wage Ive been getting for the fifteen years I have waited tables, with no benefits except for half price at the bar after work (which, dont get me wrong, is a very well appreciated perk at the Original Rib House in Vandalia, OH). While I would agree that to a certain degree one chooses the work that one does.... I would rather put up with aching legs & back than the bullcrap Ive had to put up with at certain deskjobs Ive had. But the truth for most people is they just do what they can, & most people I know dont go thru the want-ads going eeny-meeny-miney-moe.... Most people I know get jobs where other people they know work, whether they be family members or friends. And right now, there just arent many jobs to be had! My uncle Ron Brown works for Chemineer here north of Dayton, & makes about $17/ hr, which is good money, right? But every few months I hear a story about how many people are getting laid off there, & how his house isnt paid off & hes worried he isnt going to have a job, but he really just wishes he would get early retirement because hes tired!!  

My point is that working for a living is everyday violence, & if libs believe that the govt should be protecting us from physical violence, they could spend some time on an assembly line in a dark dirty factory or in a steel mill or in a coal mine or in a US prison working for twenty cents an hour. All of those are capitalist endeavours by somebody!!! All of those places are products of a free market! And NAFTA!!! HAHAHA!!! Wages are sucking in all those big companies where at least before the guys could buy themselves a big pick-up truck when they werent putting in over-time... sucking because of policies like NAFTA. And ask the Mexicans how they like those turkeys G.M. gives 'em for Christmas every year; most Mexicans dont have ovens, so, this is a real funny gift... not that a turkey cant be cooked in water, cause it can & is in Mexico. Its just funny that these guys think American apple pie & turkey dinner is what the Mexicans working at G.M. factories in Mexico want. Not to mention my ex-brother-in-law worked for Mercedes in Mexico on an assembly line for about $20/ week. Not to mention that whole towns in Mexico dont have any men in them besides old men & boys cause the rest have jumped the border despite all that great work NAFTA has imported to them, come here to work in restaurants & in the fields & in factories for the six & seven dollar an hour jobs they can get up here.

And property... forget about it. Most people I know dont have any besides clothes & dishes.

This is what Al was talking about when he said there are "states" other than the govt. These "states" are products of free-market capitalism.

OK, thats my rant.

All in the spirit of serious debate, for which Al is willing to give... his kingdom?