I Agree with Glenn!

While I agree that the Democratic National Convention sponsored by AT&T is tacky, Greenwald should know that people in glass houses shouldn't call a kettle black.

Or something like that.

Nice catch, Al.

But knowing what side my bread gets buttered on (with my paycheck from ATT) maybe I should be OK with it. 

Al, is the McCain campaign really imploding as badly as it seems to be?  I know the vast majority of folks are just not paying attention so the polls (for what they are worth) may not yet reflect it.  But for my part, I am trying not to get too excited or cocky about how poor of an opponent Barack has.  It seems to be just be a disaster of a campaign.  On the other hand, I have yet to have my faith in American voters fully restored so I will be nervous until the election is over.

Can you write another post, one on how to remove the grin from my face?

Diogenesian Snark!

The thing is, Greenwald is really doing good work. But he is humorless & this sometimes makes reading his blog laborious.

Al-I know you said you were going to stay away from the back and forth that will be going on during this time before the election in November but I too would love your wise and intelligent take on the current developments in the McCain camp. And if not on that than at least on the editing of the CBS interview. They appear extremely desperate to me. So much so that I think he risks losing a lot of credibility not only with Independents but also within his own party-which we all know, he can't afford to do. Seriously, the gaffes and statements are off the deep end and people considering a vote for him really must consider along with his age, his mental state.....It's actually quite frightening to know he's polling remotely close to Barack-though I know the polls must be taken with a HUGE grain of salt. Thoughts? I hope you're going to do a post on all of this. It seems he's gone above and beyond Clinton tactics now and he really looks pathetic.  :)

Do you feel this is an accurate analogy? The Democratic party refusing to aggressively prosecute or investigate the telecoms invasion of our privacy while being paid money by them...and a blogger hired by a website using ads that are paid for by companies the blogger claims should be prosecuted?

I'm not sure it works. Unless Greenwald was calling for "absolute purity." What do you think?

Kat @ 3:24 Pm,

I may just be an overly sensitive African-American and I realize that we aren't responsible for the creation of cliches that permeate our society, but this is the second reference to "the pot calling the kettle black" on this site in the past two days. Al's title of the thread before this was, I take it, a reference to the proverbial pot and kettle and you have resurrected it in your comment.

While I am aware that these references to "black" being equated with "bad" are embedded in American society, I pray that progressives would find less anti-black metaphors with which to illustrate our points.

There are few things that I have found to be more true than that many black people perceive that white people don't respect them. And, on the other hand, they don't trust white people to do the right thing. So, let's be conscious of the power of words in our discourse.

that's why greenwald is in the bag for big telecom, exhorting his readers to support immunity for his sponsors. right?

Greenwald is an unreadable bore whose oppressive hectoring is often mistaken for passion. I find his moral superiority and smugness to be counterproductive. And as Al has very definitively demonstrated, he's also totally full of crap.

Mikell, the phrase 'pot calling the kettle black' is so termed because it dates back to when most pots and other devices were cast iron - i.e. black.  Both the pot and the kettle are the same color, so it's just about the hypocrisy of such.  There's nothing more insidious to it, so far as I know, unless you have something to substantiate it. 

Mikell, agreed completely. I make it an ongoing effort to subvert these phrases as you can see, por ejemplo, here. They are so embedded in our usage that people don't think about them.

Unless, of course, they have no choice in the matter. 

Mikell - Your point is a good one, and well taken. Perhaps we should continue to substitute "Bevan" for "black" when using similar expressions.

Nezua - Yes, I do think Greenwald has argued for absolute purity of late, and in the most politically stupid way possible (in blaming one senator for the actions of hundreds of members of Congress, he's clearly got a post-primaries axe to grind, one that also corresponds with the partisan pro-Clinton editorial bent of the publication that pays him). 

benjoya - Here at this sacred cow barbeque, we fry 'em on both sides. Greenwald opened himself up to the critique. And in the same manner in which he implies that an entire universe of politicians can be bought for a tote bag logo, it would be just as - but no less - absurd to suggest that the real beneficiary of the way he's focused his crusade of late on a single "father figure" (that being Barack Obama) is doing a kind of bidding for the real "big telecom" candidate in the presidential race. He gets no mercy or quarter here while he keeps that up.

oversensitive...in this case...

@ Mikell...

OK my past as a teacher and Mom of little kids who read all to them all of the European fairy tales and stories...

"the pot calling the kettle black" doesn't refer to black as "bad" but rather as is "burned".  In the Middle Ages days from which many of these little ditties originated, leaving the pots and kettles on the stove too long caused burning (black)...and one was teasing the other about being "forgotten" by the cook...

Although I know what you mean...

BTW: both my students and my children are grown now, and boy am I glad!

waterprise2 AKA Pam

Liberal with a Capital L!

FWIW, I do not think it is a "fair analogy" in a pure sense but it is funny and, in its own way, revealing.  It shows how difficult it is to remain free from the influence of corporations.  That is instructive even though it is no fault of any particular individual.  Well, maybe, Al is into absolute purity which is why he does not take corporate advertising.  Here is an analogy/question.  Which blog, Al's or Glenn's, benefits more from the cozy connection between gov't and corporations? Which blogger criticizes  that relationship more?  Not the point Al was making, but an interesting, albeit unproductive, tangent.

al, i don't mind going after any sacred cows. but everyone seems to think cause greenwald's so humorless wrt the 4th amendment/FISA that he's opened up on obama indiscriminately. in fact after the FISA vote, he also called out those who were saying there's no difference between obama and mcThuseleh.

more to the point, if GG is indirectly paid by telecoms, and calls for them to be held accountable, how is that the same as pols of both parties, who are indirectly paid by telecoms, and call (vote) for them NOT to be held accountable?

FWIW, i've been an obama supporter from the getgo ( i held an O fundraiser last weekend). but his FISA vote was really disappointing. i understand the calculus that led to the vote, but i think it comes from underestimating the electorate, which isn't how he got the nomination.

In the words of the British folk band Half Man Half Biscuit (after the chorus of Give Me Joy In My Heart)

Irk the purists
Irk the purists
It could well be an Olympic sport
Irk the purists
Irk the purists
If you've never then you ought

there has been no rhyme or reason for what they are doing, every day brings us something new from them....they are laughable

I like Greenwald, but he lacks any semblance of strategic perspective. Republican evangelicals didn't jump ship on Reagan or either Bush after they felt betrayed on numerous occasions. Now they're on the verge of grabbing the brass ring of a solid right-wing Supreme Court majority.

While I was disappointed with Obama's position on FISA and what I consider the strategic stupidity of backing down on an issue that had the potential to make him look legitimately strong and independent (helping his position with both independents and his base), I'm not so arogant as to assume that my political insights are better than his (or those of his team). Moreover, even if it was a stupid move on his part, we cannot afford to be idealogically pure. The alternative is not perfection; it's a Republican named McCain.

In fairness, Greenwald wasn't advocating withholding support from Obama. But he was behaving in a way that can and did erode Obama's support. Lining up the old circular firing squad in a manner only Democrats can.

I agree with Greenwald more than Al. Yes, corporations fund media and sports teams and candy bars. When they fund politicians and parties it's just plain corruption. I guess it's seen as perfectly normal nowadays. It still stinks. When the moneyed interests openly pay off politicians to get their agenda through, that's not even close to Democracy.

Do those bags come full of ATT cash?

Democrat for US Senate (Wisconsin 2012)

Al,

Nice catch on that Verizon ad at Salon.  I expect that GG's response will be that the banner ads across the top of the page rotate on a regular basis, beyond his control.

I'm amazed at the decision to feature the AT + T logo on the convention bag.   Just weeks after rolling over on FISA, one would hope the Democrats would have the good sense not to flaunt their relationship with the telecoms. 

Gizmo - As I say in the title of this post, "I agree with Glenn" on the swag bag.

However, to make a bigger deal out of that than of media like Salon taking money from the same industry is terribly myopic. They're both bad. That's my point.

The only reason I can see for conflict in advertising revenue being more acceptable for news media than for a political party event is merely because it is more commonplace.

The news media's desire to obtain high ratings and hit-count to increase ad revenue has nearly destroyed legitimate news in this country, which has degraded the national discourse - which only leads to a degraded democracy.

The conflicts of interest that stem from multi-million dollar advertising deals with news media are much more dangerous than that tote bag could ever be.

Mideaged - My "CD collection" is almost non-existent. I download all my music from the Internets! (That, or I write and record it myself!)

I really think both candidates, as well as all other politicians, should be required to wear those silly NASCAR jumpsuits covered in all their sponsor's logos.

Is whether the bag holds the right amount of groceries.

And will the handles hold. The proof of this is in a year's time, how many of us reading this will be able to afford to fill such a bag with groceries?

Finally if you wash it can you peel the logo off?

Al said: "to make a bigger deal out of that than of media like Salon taking money from the same industry is terribly myopic."

Politicians taking industry money sure strikes me as a bigger deal. How can you compare media advertising to the wholesale buying of our Political Parties and Government?

I remember from an American History class that after the Civil War there was a serious call that Senators be chosen by Industries and not States - a Cotton Senator, an Iron Mill Senator, a Coal Mine senator, etc.

Looks like that's how we ended up anyway. Crummy way to run a country. Maybe not for the corporations, but for the people.

Sorry but I think there is a valid difference between the politicians and their swag bag, post-FISA hypocrisy and Glenn G. writing for a site that takes advertising from a telecom. In fact, I love that some telecom money is inadvertently paying for Glenn's ability to trash them.

Glad to see you got home safely from NN08.

Great time had by all.

I see Glenzilla and Madame Walsh are taking money from the telecoms...tsk,tsk,tsk. They must return that money IMMEDIATELY...or everyone must boycott Salon.com!

(disclosure, I hardly ever read  Salon.com)

Mike, if you consider the issue closely, you will note that ascribing negative characteristics to 'black' and 'dark' with associated concepts such as 'sinister', 'evil', 'corrupt', and 'dirty/unclean' is embedded in the symbolism of Western/European culture.  This is not the case with all the worlds cultures--and these associations definately make European enslavement of African people incredibliy cruel and harsh.  So I think you wise to be weary and sensitive to this issue.  However, as has been noted with the reference to cast iron, with this saying it is a bit more complicated.  This said--why the negative association with 'black' in this same phrase?  Does 'black' relate to hypocrisy?

My own internalized racism is very much color coded.

Al, you make good points with respect to Greenwald. The telecoms represent corporate power, power that strangles and weakens the power of everyday people and organizations that are not purely motived to generate profit and accumulate wealth.

My problem with prosecuting the telecoms for spying was this:  what else were they supposed to do?  Corporations are about making profit--they are top-down, quasi-fascist organizations.  I take it as a given that big corporations will trample on our rights and collude with governments.

More, the two-parties essentially represent and support status quo relations of corporate power and acculated wealth and social priviledge.  Sure, a few Democrats break fromt this mold, but the natural inclinations on the part of the establishment are still there.

If the Democrat party's platform was to make corporate power obey democratic aspirations and norms, then I would expect different.  But this is not the case in the current alignment of political power in the US.

ah013 and rickygee - I'm sorry, but I think you're both terribly naive about the locus of real power in our society. It's in the private sector, and none more powerful than the commercial media.

Maybe when I wrote it 12 years ago in The Medium is The Middleman: For a Revolution Against Media, it would have been a new and novel concept. But today, its premise is understood by more people and change-agents than ever before:

Media now controls a new economic order: one that has supplanted governments, churches and productive industry to impose a mediating tyranny over people and our Daily Lives. 

The commercial media governs our lives more intrusively than any government. And whether you're talking about Fox News or the New York Times or Salon.com, these institutions must be held to as high or higher levels of scrutiny and accountability than governments.

You may not see it that way, fine. But if so, you're stuck in a previous century.

You beat me to it, Al... I was ready to post an identical thought. If one wonders how powerful the media is in sculpting our perceptions, one has only to look at this election playing out in front of us. I do think it is just as notable who funds the media outlets, as who funds the convention. I have moments of absolute fury, accompanied by a sense of helplessness when reading/listening to the commercial media; the helplessness comes from the knowledge that the larger public gleans information from those sources only... 

@ Homing Pigeon

What a wonderful idea! Not that it'd ever happen but that would be something I'd love to see. Bring it all out into the open, course some of them would be so covered the logos would be nearly microscopic but hey it's still a great thought!

hey Al,

I was just wondering what your thoughts are on Obama's speech in Germany.  I actually think it's a pretty good idea, but I can see how the republicans, and members of the media are already trying to use it to push the "un-american" meme about Obama giving the speech in Berlin.  I know you are not in the business of second guessing the Obama campaign, but do you think giving the speech in a large "rally of Germans" was a good idea, or is it just the usual as I see it, Obama's damned if he does and damned if is doesn't.

Also, can anyone tell me where/when I can see the speech.  i'm not too good with time zones.

Well, you really can't get away from branding in America. The Dem. and Rep. conventions are like the Super Bowls of politics, and you see what kind of corporate advertising the gridiron event draws each year.

And publications like Salon sop up corporate advertising all the time, regardless of the political or football season.

So, in that sense, Greenwald's post was a little silly -- rapping the DNC for taking corporate advertising. He jumped from a personal blogsite (Unclaimed Territory) absent big blocks of corporate advertising to Salon knowing of it's advertising leanings, but contending that the Salon site offered him the opportunity to reach more people and to have a bigger impact.

But that tradeoff also means, at some point, if he cuts too close to the bone, the telecoms may try to use their advertising leverage to rein Greenwald in -- and that will be the test of Salon's (and Greenwald's) editorial integrity. The fact that the telecoms continue to advertise despite Greenwald's lambasting columns tells me that it is likely they either view him as nonthreatening or possibly as helpful in some way to their strategic goals.

But it's dangerous to speculate on that front, since we don't know what happens behind the scenes at Salon. In any event, I'd be careful about attributing absolute power paradigms to even corporations. In any hierachical organization, there is an element of exercised power, but it is never absolute.

We all use the services of the telecoms and thousands of ordinary people are employed by these companies -- raising families and the like with those paychecks. Is that money automatically dirty?

In fact, Quest Communications has a mega contract to provide Internet and data services to both conventions, which means attendees, including bloggers, will likely be scarfing up those wireless services, presumably on Quest's dime in exchange for the conventions providing Quest with various branding opportunities, including tote bags.

It's very symbiotic, and it only becomes intimidating if we choose to ignore the real power people have within corporations. After all, corporations are not gods; they are nothing more than people organized around a purpose. Blind allegiance to a bad purpose is the danger in that case, and an enlightened citizenry can affect that purpose.

And before you say that's absurd, consider that the union contract covering some 21,000 Quest workers is set to expire in mid-August, about a week before the Dem. convention and less than a month before the Sept. 1 Republican convention.

The contract will likely get worked out, but what happens if it doesn't? The company's leadership claims they have that contingency covered, but suppose they're wrong, and suddenly, the day before the Dem. convention, the connection to the Internet goes dead, because the common folks who make the Internet work choose not to work -- that they decide to organize to move corporate power toward a different purpose?

All I'm saying is what a teacher once told me about the truth of a school -- not dissimilar to any organizational structure created by humans. When we were young, in the classroom, we thought, most of us, that we had no power. But the teacher told me that in reality, in her experience, the administration of any school only has power through illusion -- because the students give it to them without resisting. Now, maybe that's a good thing in most cases, but as we saw during the civil rights movement of the 1960s, it is not an absolute power -- and is justly challenged when civil rights are at stake (as was the case with segregation and the false concept of separate but equal schools).

When more of us wake up to that reality, no amount of advertising will be able to maintain the illusion. Until then, though, if someone's giving out free branded tote bags, I have no problem scarfing one up to add to my tacky merchandise collection.

Don't mourn. Organize.

Every time there is another McCain gaff I keep hearing in my head this advertising slogan.

Someone please tell me if you American dudes also have a frozen food giant called McCain - here they 'make' frozen pizza, garlic bread, 'freedom fries' and other 'American foodstuffs'.

BondiBeachViews

Democrat for US Senate (Wisconsin 2012)

Hey mate, join the 'real world' and bookmark this site:  ;)

http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/

BondiBeachViews

Thanks for your recent post. I have a tendency to be fiercly idealistic at times, and sometimes need to be reminded that in order to be a progressive libertarian, one has to be pragmatic at times.

Now excuse me while I mourn, and organize my thoughts.

Lord I'm one
Lord I'm two
Lord I'm three
Lord I'm four
Lord I'm...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3pNF2nQzDrU

Micheal C,

Thanks for the link.  I could have googled the timezone calculator, but sometimes ya just don't want to do the work yourself.  Seriously, thanks.

So I found out that Obama's speech is scheduled for 7pm Berlin time, which I now know, thanks to my handy new timezone calculator (thx Michael C) should be 12 noon CST.

Bill, one more thing. Your story about what your teacher told you, reminded me of something I hadn't thought about for a long time. And goes to show that what you say is true.  In the early 70s, I was attending elementary school in Detroit. I was a 3rd grader when I participated in a strike for the first time. The teachers had been on strike before us, and it was drawn out. So after they reached a settlement, it was decided that our summer vacation was going to be cut short, because of the teacher strike. It was rather insane, cops chasing down us little kids who were running around screaming and holding signs in front of the school, and later, when things calmed down,  principle trying to find out who instigated it. I don't know whether or not he ever did figure out who was behind it.

I'm not sure what song is more appropriate :D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tjuy50onSXg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=df8MikZx6w4

Cool - that's one reason why us Fieldhands Abroad are here - to broaden your views of the world. ;)

In Sydney it will be Friday, 25 July 2008 at 3:00:00 AM - see we're always ahead of you American dudes and dudesses - us Australians just can't help but be in front of the pack. ;)

BondiBeachViews

Yes, maybe it's naive to be repulsed at the corporate branding of our government and political parties. They rule this corrupt state and have since day 1.

But how naive is it to think that a mere couple weeks after granting telecom amnesty, the Dems can prance around with ATT-branded swag bags at their convention and not look like a bunch of laughable, shallow clowns for sale to the highest bidder?

Just a little common sense would pay big dividends, even in our degenerate days. Corporate branding - a few grand. Self-respect and pride - priceless.

Bill Conroy,

Thanks for your thoughts and perspectives on corporate power.

It's very symbiotic, and it only becomes intimidating if we choose to ignore the real power people have within corporations. After all, corporations are not gods; they are nothing more than people organized around a purpose. Blind allegiance to a bad purpose is the danger in that case, and an enlightened citizenry can affect that purpose.

I was reminded of Starhawk aka Miriam Simos's teachings in her book Dreaming the Dark: Magic, Sex & Politics, 1982 and many other works that corporations, nuclear power plants, the Pentagon and other entities are not monolithic powers but are collections of individuals and, as such, can be targeted, worked with and altered.

Media now controls a new economic order: one that has supplanted governments, churches and productive industry to impose a mediating tyranny over people and our Daily Lives. 

is 100% right and 100% Orwellian.

America, as a democracy and pushing (or rather shoving it down the throat) their meme of "democracy" on rest of the world at the cost of human lives is a travesty.

Al's 3 questions at the end of his 2002 article still remain unanswered to the extent that the media has become all the more pervasive and corrupt.

A. How do people develop a language of opposition
against Media when the Media controls all language?

B. Since Media excels at co-opting popular movements, both
political and cultural, how can a popular resistance be
designed to successfully overturn the co-optation process
that has turned other important causes into commodities?

C. In history, revolts have been conducted against
governments, leaders and classes. But how can a
revolt be formulated against a technology such as Media?

Let's see whether this election answers these questions.

amk

...than logos on journalism?

ah013 - You seem to be a very selective reader and listener, screening out the parts you don't want to hear in order to impose something on the text that the writer didn't say.

This piece begins with a title - "I Agree With Glenn" - and yet now for two comments you behave as if it somehow defended the concept of corporate logos on convention bags, when - if you bother yourself to read as energetically as you comment - it in fact opposed it.

But why get the facts get in the way of a rant, eh?

Why is it so apparently difficult for you to consider that one can be opposed both to corporate influence over politicians and political parties and also to the the big-money bribery and remote-control ownership of what passes as journalism, journalists and "the free press" in this day and age?

For many of us, you can't pull the two apart: and thus the hypocrisy of those that take that same corporate money to do journalism or media, when they get on their high horses to denounce others for doing exactly what they do, is as troubling as it is deliciously ironic.

So you can continue, if you wish, being excited when one corporate-funded institution denounces another.

Others of us, however, see it as two heads of the same beast.

I read the HuffPo article of CBS editing McSame, and other than that and the Oberman video - haven't seen this incident reported anyplace else.  Is it my imagination, or has this just fallen under the MSM 'radar screen' - are they really going to get away with this?????

I had a lovely vision of the famous encounter between Alexander and Diogenes, as it would have taken place in 2008:

Alexander: Can I give you anything, Diogenes?

Diogenes: Dude, you're blocking my product placements!

Alexander: If I were not Alexander, I would be Diogenes.

(From: Market Secrets of Diogenes. How I went from a barrel to a penthouse in seven easy steps. The revised, authorized edition. With a new foreword by Alexander of Macedon)